Harry Potter
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Harry Potter Anyone else think Barty Crouch Jr. was not (always) distant with his father but that they were/used to be close? [Please see my comment first.]
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Well, I think they could have been close but in my view, distant.
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Not I. I think they were distant.
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Yes, I think they were close / used to be close.
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I'm not saying I'd think I'm more right than others. I'm merely saying it is utterly possible that they were close and feeling a bit lonely being the only one who sees them that way. As in, takes a different point of view into the book's content.
It just really has started to bother me. Only one person in my 6 years of loving the characters, has agreed that they COULD have been close but not even she see them that way. But at least she sees how they could’ve been.
I see it not distant but close yet very complicated relationship that just didn’t work too well. And Junior took stuff harder than he would’ve needed to, and harder than some other kids might have taken, and his daddy didn’t see how bad he really felt. (Hence, leading Junior into joining the Des in desire to get back at his father in certain terms – it subconsciously formed throughout some years. Junior was not looking for downright a father-figure replacement or love in Voldemort but only the acceptance/approval he had been essentially missing from his father and also wanted to get back at him in power matters and stuff related to his father's ambition. But he didn't need Voldemort to replace his father in any truly emotional way, like love and closeness - that he had from his father and it's not as if he'd found that from Voldemort anyway.)
We only know the man his father was in 1994-1995 after all that drama + 13 years of living with it all. He couldn't have possibly forgotten or pushed much aside any of it and so begin to truly heal if at all, because he was constantly bound to the loss and hurt by having to protect and ristrain his son. He could not allow himself to forget that the fate of the society as well as his son's life, was in his hands and depended on how cautious he was with protecting.
So - I really, really wouldn't trust in the first impression image of a man gone through so much and having dealt with it so long.
And the only thing implying that he'd worked too much and for that didn't get to know his own son, is Sirius saying so. But how could Sirius know? As far as we know, he wasn't a friend to Juniior or know anything about the Crouch family. Not to mention that he naturally had a low opinion on Senior, who had thrown him into Azkaban without a trial while he was innocent.
So, BCS being a distant father - I'm not ready to sign that belief until I'm able to dismiss all those - in my opinion essential - psychological points seeing to the image the book gives. I mean, is it not safe to assume Rowling may have thought of them too as she wrote them to happen to the family. So please note; of course some of his characteristics we can see in GoF would've always been there. So no, I'm not saying BCS would've been completely different person before the trial and all, but easily could've been essentially and remarkably different. Ie. not necessarely a distant father.
My interpretation of Junior was a mama’s boy only to a degree; his mother worshipped him so that he had not grown to see and respect her as a parent but look at her as an utter equal or even worse. He had a more genuinely strong and moving emotional bond to his mother than to his father because he'd spent more time with her and because she was always (too) kind and gentle no matter what and tried to get her baby out of anything stupid he'd pulled. But that's all to his mama's-boyness. (Junior reckoned his mother might be willing to try and help him in the trial.)
A boy child has a need and tendency to look up to his father more, in any case and a child needs at least one true parent. My Junior had a spirited nature and as said, he didn't think his mother as an authority figure or someone to look up to, and so couldn't even come to feel childlike devotion for her. His father certainly was someone to gain all that. And, he was his father's son. Thus, Junior was always a daddy's boy in his own heart and world. And also in his father's.(Junior broke down and grew deeply bitter because of the events in his trial, as he had thought "But I'm your son!" might help. And the father was in fury, in shcok, and wouldn't listen, because his boy would not be a Death Eater, the very least a torturer. And as I've said, the disowning wasn't what it seemed - he never stopped loving Junior as his son.)
He was close with his father and they had their good times and the boy had felt the feeling of being loved by him, but the father in the end put his job as a judge ahead his family, for too long took his job as a judge more important than that of as a father. When daddy's little boy was always there but the father did not take care of the relationship, anything good and beautiful is sure to slowly turn into bad, through loneliness, uncertainty, bitterness, all the way to occasional moments of hate. If dad was not enough there for him when he needed him the most after his mother got deathly ill but selfishly drowned his own sorrow into his precious job, and the kid happened to be in sensitive age at the time, things would certainly get worse fast.
So I write with a thought, that rich people do not necessarely live in any special way, and that hard times and huge emotional blows change people - so even Senior, just like Junior, could've been essentially different person before all that is described in the Goblet of Fire book. Their hard times and blows were so extreme that even strong persons may change. Like Senior seemed uncomfortable around children and not knowing how to talk to them: Maybe he became like that after what happened withi his own son even though he had in their time been fine around him.
(I have written couple of fanfiction stories in this interpretation of mine and they're here too in the Articles section. link sets on Junior's 4th year at Hogwarts and link tells what happened the day his parents save him from Azkaban. Here is also a fan video I've made from Junior to his father: link.)
And link you can read why I think it's actially likely that the book's Junior was more devoted to his family than to Voldemort - until his year in Azkaban + the 13 years turned him into a truly fanatic and utterly devoted Death Eater.
This is going off-topic now but I have to say:
NimfaDora,
I respect that, but what if he DIDN'T take part in the torture? The book does not confirm that in any way at any point. In fact, it does the utter opposite of it: in many characters's (not just Junior's own but also Dumbledore's and Harry's and Sirius's too if I recall correctly) words it implies that Junior may not have been involved. So, was Jo trying to tell us something with that or just simply create suspence?
It is also possible that IF Junior was guilty of the crime - he did not do it out of his own free will but under the influence of the Imperius Curse. We know ab-so-lute-ly nothing certain about his part in the crime - or as said if he even had any part in it.
As for the crimes he commited in 1994-1995 - thanks to his year in Azkaban and the 13 years constantly under a strong Imperius Cursem he was already utterly mentally damaged case, in other words, sick - which should affect how harsh you should judge him.
(In my interpretation he did take part in the torture of the Longbottoms but it is not that simple - he didn't really want to do it though he wasn't under the Imperius either. You can read something - not all but something - about it from the fic "Screaming In Our Hearts". Link in the original post of this pick.)
When I read the book I was sure he was torturing Neville's parents. The way he behaved, talked, assured me that he was a bastard. I don't care about his pain, whatever it was. I care about the pain he gave to the Longbottoms and Neville's pain.
Oh, and sorry, but I never read a fanfic.
I'm sorry if it was something I've said. I don't think anyone should be scared to comment on this pick. Please remember - that was a complete off-topic "debate" about crime & judgement and justice. Remember this question is simply about if people think the father and son were close or not. That's what you're supposed to comment on! And I don't think I have expressed any scary emotions about that, have I? (:
I edited most of my previous post away. In case it was that that scared you - I didn't mean it that way and anyway it was continuing the off-topic.
1) Barty Crouch was a workaholic if there ever was one.
2)The fact that Barty Senior tried his son in court proves that he either:
a)doesn't know his son well enough to realise he would never be involved in such horrible crimes
b)doesn't know his son well enough to realise he could be a Death Eater. People don't change that much in a few years; Barty J must have always had it in him.
c)puts his job before his son, hence the workaholic conclusion.
But that's just my opinion. :D
"1) Barty Crouch was a workaholic if there ever was one."
- Only Sirius says so. Barty surely worked a lot but not necessarely too much, as in so much that he didn't get to know his son. Sirius could not have knowledge of it anyway, not to mention his personal negative feelings about the man. (Besides, Junior spent mmost of his teenage years at Hogwarts and so wasn't much around to be with.)
"2)The fact that Barty Senior tried his son in court proves that he either:
a)doesn't know his son well enough to realise he would never be involved in such horrible crimes
b)doesn't know his son well enough to realise he could be a Death Eater. People don't change that much in a few years; Barty J must have always had it in him.
c)puts his job before his son, hence the workaholic conclusion."
d.) As I say in the first lines of my first comment, I can't bring myself to dismiss the trial's psychological and emotional affects that would have to be extreme to any father.
1. There are numerous possibilities how Junior could've done the torture without "having it in him" in the way that usually means. Such as, under the influence of the Imperius Curse OR the Lestranges in one way or another making him to take part and Voldemort's kept promises cause devotion enough in him to be able to cast the curse. As for having it in him to do any DE stuff - sure, but it's not the point. As that is still something his father might have seen possible, mostly subconsciously, and so unable to take care of that it would not happen. But the unspeakable double-torture-into-madness is the key in the trial's shocking blow. Not the being a DE in general.
2. So the father knew his son; that the boy might have become a DE for some reason but that the boy would never do such a horrible crime out of his own entirely free will. BUT he was in an utter shock and so blinded to what he knew / unable to think about it. He was in such a shock because there was undeniable evidence that the boy had done it at all + it caused so many negative affects and emotions in everyone from himself to his wife and to everyone else. Who wouldn't be in such a shock? - the crime was utterly unthinkable and his (close) family member was guilty! Which is also why he wouldn't listen to the boy's pleading and denying (because the boy was lying as the evidence was undeniable.)
3. Junior kept denying it regardless of it being a lie because he hadn't wanted to take part in it + knew his father knew him well enough (because they'd been close) and had faith that it would remind the man of it and have him think about all the possibilities, regardless of the shock.
The boy having become a DE was just very unpleasent and irritating to actually having happened + the utterly shocking torture crime and all of it publicly revealed = the father felt a strong urge to disown him and all that - BUT later, when calmed down and over the shock - he came to see also why the boy had become a DE and also remembered how he really knew his son (because they were close) & so came to regret such thoughtless and harsh punishments and for one because of that, agreed to save him.
So the fact that he trialed his son doesn't prove how close or distant they were. They could've been either way.
I DO think at one point they WERE close but due to different life choices and events that caused both father/son to make the decisions that they made.
1. BCS was a workaholic and from that impression didnt spend much quality time with his son...dont underestimate the sad truth of people being consumed by work and not spending time with their kids...
2. BCS sent his own son to Azabakan as an example for the wizarding community, not to mention BCS was a dark wizard catcher which may have played a part in BCJ's life choices: becoming a dark wizard and loyal to voldemort...BCS sent his son to Azabakan probably not truly knowing/or caring if his son WAS or WASNT a death eater...(im going by half what sirius has said..and what i think)
3. BCS placing his son under the Imperius Curse and placing BCJ in isolation for 13+ years has got to cause hositlity/hatred not to mention mental instability for BCJ and not truly giving BCJ a second chance for a 19 year old kid...to learn from his mistakes by the sacrifices his mother and YEs his father...so there is LOVE there, even though BCS did it for his WIFE but deep inside he did take action, in my opinion, out of LOVE for his son...
4. BCJ - i find him very intelligent and talented wizard...though i find him very ungrateful to the people who made sacrfrices for him (when in my honest opinion he doesnt deserve - for his part in torturing the longbottoms even with his initial insistence he fell into the wrong crowd and didnt take part): his mother, winky, and in some part his father...i think he's incapable of love...only because he wasnt shown any by his father...and he was totally ignorant of the love and sympathy he was shown by his mother and winky...and blindsided by his hero worship to his father figure: Voldemort.
5. Voldemort - gave the attention, support that BCJ was craving for that his own father neglected to give him...and i think BCJ is too screwed up emotionally and mentally anyways - partially his own fault and others and Voldemort helped mould BCJ into a sadistic follower loyal to him and completely devoted to the Dark Arts and himself...due to BCS pushing his own son away...into the open arms..or circle of Voldemort...
I hope that all made sense...let me know what you think, cuz i dont think BCJ woke up one morning and said "Screw you mum, dad, winky. im gonna betray you all"
i think over the years familial relationships were strained and eventually breaking to the point causing BCJ to make the life choices he made and falling into crowd that is pure blood supermacy and murdering innocent people for the sake of Voldemort...
not to mention isolation and certain life events..theres something seriously wrong with the guy...dangerous...manuiplative...and im going off topic there so im gonna leave it there...
:)
In this post, I wish to put weight on the how, which I think should be taken as essential as the what - when looking into the information given in the book. (:
Let me get into the latest, great and interesting comment. ^^
"1. BCS was a workaholic and from that impression didnt spend much quality time with his son..."
Why is everyone always painting BCJ that horrible workaholic for life? We don't know how much a workaholic he was at the time when Junior was a child/teenager.
Yes, Sirius states that Barty Crouch Sr. didn't get to know his son and that it was because of working too much. But it's the leaat reliable thing to make it a fact. Because how is that information laied out? Sirius hates Barty Sr. and isn't likely to have known the Crouch family anyway. Hence; if Jo had meant that statement to be the exact truth - she most likely would not have put those words into a mouth of a stranger who also hates the person in talks. So, here the literal is not the canon for the Crouch family, but only for Sirius's opinion on them.
Yes, Percy's words imply that Barty Sr. was a workaholic of the worst kind. But Percy did not know BCS. His impression was about the man BCS was during the 90's era, AFTER he had lost his entire family. What else did BCS have left at that time but work? His wife was dead and the relationship with his son was destroyed. All he had anymore, was work. So it may have been essentially different before.
So, yes, Senior was obviously ambitious, but that does not equal a workaholic - he surely worked a lot but not necessarely a holic. So not make him ignore his son or not spend generally taken enough quality time with him. It, however, might have been not enough time for the son personally. Some kids yearn for more than others and take any amount of disappointments worse than others. Especially if they had become emotionally very attatched to the parent (which would come out of spending quality time with them.)
But my point is - any time BCS is implied having been a workaholic who ignored/dismissed his family too much, it is through people who did not know the family at all during the time the family existed - and one of the persons also hated BCS.
So I really, really think that if Jo had meant BCS as a workaholic who didn't spend enough time with his son to know him, she would've put it into Junior's or Senior's mouth, instead of always through a stranger's ignorant and/or hateful point of view. As already analyzed in earlier posts, the fact that he sentenced and disowned his son, didn't necessarely have to do with not knowing him.
"2. ...BCS sent his son to Azabakan probably not truly knowing/or caring if his son WAS or WASNT a death eater...(im going by half what sirius has said..and what i think)"
I think knew and truly cared, and so, also that it was not just for an example to the society. Because he didn't just simply send his own son to Azkaban but he also publicly and furiously disowned him. He hurt his son in an extreme way on an emotional level. So the boy being a DE, and to the court evidently enough, taken part in the torture, must have been emotionally a personal matter to BCS, in one way or another. And I've already reasoned how it all could've happened even if they'd been close. Hence, the extreme-situation point I made in how Jo chose to portray the family. All that publicly revealed. Shock and fury for every possible reason. BCS probably was not just a working-machine. He was a human. With a family and ability to feel love, hurt, shock, regret, disappointment and all that stuff.
Even Bellatrix Lestrange, though she was insane and emotionally cold mostly, cared for her family. So chances are that Junior and his father did too.
"3. BCS placing his son under the Imperius Curse and placing BCJ in isolation for 13+ years has got to cause hositlity/hatred not to mention mental instability for BCJ and not truly giving BCJ a second chance for a 19 year old kid...to learn from his mistakes by the sacrifices his mother and YEs his father...so there is LOVE there, even though BCS did it for his WIFE but deep inside he did take action, in my opinion, out of LOVE for his son..."
I agree mostly. I don't think he could've had the strength and will to let his wife die in Azkaban if he himself too, didn't love the boy and think of him as his son. But there was no way he could've given Junior a second chance or let him live more free than he did. Azkaban is bound to make it's prisoner mentally and emotionally truly messed up - especially if the prisoner has nothing to hold on to. Like Junior didn't. Hence, Junior was dying within a year. BCS was not stupid. He knew he had lost his son by the disowning and life sentence and so the boy was not there to be given a second chance. All he could do was try to protect whatever was left of his boy and make his life as pleasent as possible in the situation.
And I would say those words and other family related pain was what made Junior lose his will to live, as he did have faith in Voldemort still being alive. And for one because it likely was the family stuff that made him lose his will to live that fast, I interpreted that they might have been somewhat or even very close to each other.
"4. BCJ - i find him very intelligent and talented wizard...though i find him very ungrateful to the people who made sacrfrices for him (when in my honest opinion he doesnt deserve - for his part in torturing the longbottoms even with his initial insistence he fell into the wrong crowd and didnt take part): his mother, winky, and in some part his father...i think he's incapable of love...only because he wasnt shown any by his father...and he was totally ignorant of the love and sympathy he was shown by his mother and winky...and blindsided by his hero worship to his father figure: Voldemort."
But Rowling put weight in her writing, on the possibility that BCJ did not take part in the torture while she never confirmed that he did. I think that means something. Likely, that he really was innocent - or that he hadn't wanted to take part but was in some way forced. So I don't think that had much to do with ungratefullness.
As for the sacrifices his parents made to save him from Azkaban... As already said, he certainly was already emotionally and mentally horribly distorted. Much more than he was before Azkaban. And IF he wasn't guilty of the torture or had been forced and it wasn't looked into, he would also be bitter and have every rights to be. This would naturally over-shadow any chance for gratefulness. For the same reasons, I don't think he had to be totally ignorant of love others had given him or unable to feel it himself.
(Him being sentenced to Azkaban if he was innocent - it's not the first time that innocent get thrown into a prison, when evidence speaks loudly enough against them.)
"5. Voldemort - gave the attention, support that BCJ was craving for that his own father neglected to give him...and i think BCJ is too screwed up emotionally and mentally anyways - partially his own fault and others and Voldemort helped mould BCJ into a sadistic follower loyal to him and completely devoted to the Dark Arts and himself...due to BCS pushing his own son away...into the open arms..or circle of Voldemort..."
Yes, agreed, but just not in so extreme-development level. There didn't need to be so much neglect or ignoring in other elements but the acceptance, to push BCJ to join Voldemort. In a father-son relationship - especially in a close one - the lack of approval can be very cruscial.
And b/c of BCJ about to die within a year in Azkaban, regardless of believeing Voldemort to be alive, I really don't think he was too devoted to Voldy back then, in any way. It was the psychological torture that he went through in Azkaban for a year but in genuine belief it was for life, that most likely very much weighted on his family by over and over again reliving and feeling the trial's events, that turned him into it.
"i dont think BCJ woke up one morning and said "Screw you mum, dad, winky. im gonna betray you all"
Me neither. But it doesn't close out the possibility that they were close. I do think that during BCJ's teenage years the relationhip got seemingly more distant on practical level. Because BCJ was most of the years at Hogwarts and probably the mother's deathly illness affected both men in the family. Basically, a genuine desire to get back at his father for the lack of approval and for the ambition matters, had subconsciously formed inside BCJ for years and that was the driving element. The relationship really didn't need to be distant or in-numerous-ways-bad all along, or even basically.
I think people are over-looking a crucial element of the way the Crouch family is portrayed in the book;
We always met them and heard their opinions in extreme situations, such as in the trial's emotional drama and shocked atmosphere - whereas in a courtroom you're never acting your regular family way anyway. Or a mentally ill and emotionally horribly twisted Junior expressing himself. Or a stranger&hater speaking his opinion.
As in; Jo never let us interpret them on their own land (at home), on a neutral base (like on the streets on free time) and by their regular behavior and communication with each other.
Thus, Jo does NOT shine the light on the family's true feelings and she does not let us know anything certain or crucial on their life style either. So while we can not be sure of what is her exact image, I think it's safe to assume, it at least is not what the literal content makes it seem like.
But there's more to it: Let's take note of that Dumbledore didn't work at the Ministry and certainly not at the Law Enforment, so he may not have known all the evidence there had been.
Also, I can't see Barty Sr. sending his own son to Azkaban with a label of a torturer on his forehead if there had been even the slightest chance to clear the boy's and through that his own reputation. The evidence must have been undeniable enough for him to get so extremely furious and choosing to pass the sentence on him. The man seemed too ambitious to pass such sentence on minimum or too little evidence, instead of fighting for his name's honor.
So, Junior may have really been innocent but somehow the evidence spoke enough against it, or he was guilty and the father's shock and fury took over before he could investigate all essential information on the events - in either case leaving Junior little chance to convince him of his innocence or 'innocence'.
Added to this what I already reasoned about Senior's possible psychological reaction on the entity of teh situation.
This of course doesn't ptove that the father knew his son and that they were/had been close. But I think this is enough to say that the sentence choice isn't an evidence of him not knowing him either. He may have known him perfectly well. Just like Remus, McGonigall and probably Dumbledore knew Sirius Black well enough to know better than to believe him guilty, but they didn't help him - likely because of the evidence.
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